Podcasts, Season 3 — October 13, 2013 at 1:18 pm

Episode 312: Emperor Jesus?

by

CMArtNoFrameWas Jesus a literary creation of the Roman Emperors? This episode delves into the controversial work of Joseph Atwill, author of Caesar’s Messiah.

Links:

Caesar’s Messiah by Joseph Atwill

Covert Messiah Conference – October 19, 2013 – London, UK

DOWNLOAD AUDIO PODCAST BELOW:

 

9 Comments

  • This was a great show guys. It was really compelling information and it felt right to me. I am going to have to get the book or watch the movie now. Never was a big jeebus fan. If this is what you consider to be a more controversial topic I am really looking forward to more shows!

  • Thank you, really enjoyed the presentation on this.

    Here is the film on YouTube – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aSKN0xnfsA

  • Really interesting show guys, will likely have to listen again to take it all in!

  • I always recommend the work of Robert M. Price for information on early Christianity and the Christ Myth Theory. He has a couple podcasts on the subject. He tends to discount the Roman origin part of this story, though he also questions the historicity of Jesus.

  • I got a real kick out of this episode as well, and always appreciate how you couch things in a “hmm… could be?” sort of way.

    Like M Wagner, I’d also recommend Robert M. Price on this sort of hypothesizing. And in the case of Atwill, he already has: http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/rev_atwill.htm

    Richard Carrier, who like Price sees more evidence for Christ being a myth, has similarly broken Atwill’s argument down, and notes it’s not all that new:
    http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/4664

    Another group to consider Atwill’s argument is the Reasonable Doubts podcast. Like Price and Atwill, they also have no skin in the “Jesus was real” game. But they point out some real logical issues with the claim:

    – The Romans had more to worry about with the Gauls than the Jews, and had no trouble containing the one Jewish uprising they had to deal with in that era. Why wouldn’t they have used these super-secret psy-ops project to take down their main threat, the Gauls?

    – There were dozens of Jewish sects at the time, and they all had differing opinions on what the messiah was. How could these Roman conspirators identify what Jewish expectations and work from those to manufacture their egregore, when there was no way of telling which messianic interpretation was the right one?

    – The canonical Gospels don’t even agree upon the sequence of events, outside some basic origin points of the narrative. And once you get outside the canonical Gospels, things get more hairy. Did Flavius Josephus write all of the different Gospels, in different styles with different narratives and different goals?

    – The canonical Gospels weren’t established until the second century, long after Josephus, and it wasn’t Josephus at Nicea.

    – The contradictions in the Gospels follow a pattern that shows separate purposes; if this was a plot, those contradictions couldn’t have the historical pattern they display.

    – If you accept the dating methods and put Mark as the earliest Gospel at about 70 CE, you still have to contend with Paul’s writings, which appear roughly 20 years earlier, well before any Jewish revolts — so Paul’s writings couldn’t have been a forgery in reaction to a Jewish uprising.

    – Why try to avoid a Jewish uprising by creating a religion that tells followers they don’t have to follow Jewish law? And why write it in Greek, which was used by the Roman occupiers?

    – Christianity never caught on in Judea where the uprisings took place; it really only took root among Jews outside of Palestine and among Jewish-leaning Gentiles.

    It’s a fun discussion. It’s always good to bring a squinty skeptical eye to any faith, but it’s also good to bring a similar skepticism to one’s own arguments.

    You can hear it here if you like: http://freethoughtblogs.com/reasonabledoubts/2013/10/19/episode-120-church-for-atheists-with-guest-jerry-dewitt/

  • You guys aren’t in iTunes anymore?

    The iPad Podcasts app keeps coming up blank whenever I search OUT THERE RADIO.

    What gives?

  • the Atwill work was the best with 1 caveat , it needs to be duebmd down . The connections between Jesus and Titus in the chapter entitled Fishers Of Men are enough for the seaching mind but everything else is just overkill and makes it sound like something we would here from conspiracy theorists who only accept what they conclude .I myself would ask a question of the author , when you say the gospels and Josephus were written together , do you mean the 4 so called gospels or all of the New Testament ?Personally myself I doubt the historical Josephus actually wrote the War of The Jews or later works and his earlier works mention nobody named Jesus and that for me is a huge red flag . It makes much more sense to me if the Paul char actually wrote as Josephus in the later works and maybe his actual name was Gaius Julius Archelaus Antiochus Epiphanes but now I am thinking out loud .Essentio

  • I find this theory so similar to the widely unknown theory of the creator of “RaHoWa” or impeding “Racial Holy War” by Florida politician & John Birch Society member Ben Klassen who wrote in 1987 a book called “Rahowa – This Planet Is All Ours”. Which he claims that Jews created Christianity in order to make white people weaker, and he said that the first priority should be to “smash the Jewish Behemoth”. He was your typical Knight of the Golden Circle Southern Democrat but draws many parallels with Joseph Atwills work just concludes that the Jews of Judea created the Jesus myth even creating a patsy to be cruxifed and wrote the New Testament pushing it on the Flavian Dyansty who just conquered them.

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